Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Plan

[twinimini]

So I've had a chance to check out Herman Cain's tax proposals. I must admit I'm really disappointed. I thought Cain would be the best option we had, but his tax proposal shows a huge lack of insight. Most people look at this and think that this is a great proposal because it's a flat 9% tax with no deductions. That's fine for most wage earners, but what about the self employed? What most people don't realize is the complexity of the tax code is not based on its rates, but rather how you compute the amount of income that is taxable. So, to Herman I would pose the question, you are taxing me on 9% of what? If my business grosses $1,000,000 and I can't take off the expenses for my employees, rent, benefits for my employees, then I could be paying $90,000 in tax even though I only made a $20,000 profit. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

If I'm currently in a 35% tax bracket then I would love Herman's 9% income tax. Man, I'll take a 26% cut in taxes any day. Oh, but did you notice? His tax isn't a flat tax either. You would be able to deduct contributions and, oh yeah, if you live in an impoverished area, you wouldn't pay the 9% either. Just think what else would get changed before this thing ever got in place.

His national sales tax of 9% is another beauty. If any of you have ever dealt with sales tax you know how quirky it is. If I buy Apirin for my dog, it's taxable, but if I tell the pharmacist, it's for me, then it's not taxable. If I'm a non-profit organization, then I don't pay sales tax.

I really thought that Cain was a guy we could wrap our arms around and give him a chance to turn this mess around, but I was wrong. His proposals show an incredible lack of sense about small business and how business has to operate to succeed. Too bad because he got my hopes up and now I'm back trying to find a candidate that makes my day. I guess I'm just suffering from electile dysfunction.

[Brewster]

Originally Posted by twinimini

If I buy Apirin for my dog, it's taxable, but if I tell the pharmacist, it's for me, then it's not taxable.

I think the pharmacist should tell you aspirin can be dangerous for dogs...

Originally Posted by twinimini

I guess I'm just suffering from electile dysfunction.

Good one...lol


Back to Romney?

[twinimini]

Yep Brewster, I guess I'm back to Romney. Not that I have anything against the guy, but I just question whether or not he can beat Obama more than anything. I like Cain and I like the idea of a businessman in there rather than just another career politician, but his tax plan doesn't make any sense. To me his tax plan is one that sounds good on the surface, but the reality is that it doesn't work. Also I don't think I want to let Congress get their paws on a new tax that can be raised at a pure whim. Our sales tax here in our county was supposed to be a temporary levy of 2% when it was instituted some 50 years ago. We're just under 9% now and headed up at some future time.

[Brewster]

Yeah, income tax was a "temporary war measure", too. At least here in Canada.

The problem I would have with a "business man" is that the learning curve would be huge. Politics is a very different world. Both domestic and abroad.

Things have changed so much. There was a time when I was discouraged by our politicians in Canada. I used to joke that I would be happy getting the loser of your presidential elections. These days I don't think I would want the winner...

Where the heck are all the "good ones"?

Originally Posted by twinimini

Yep Brewster, I guess I'm back to Romney. Not that I have anything against the guy, but I just question whether or not he can beat Obama more than anything. I like Cain and I like the idea of a businessman in there rather than just another career politician, but his tax plan doesn't make any sense. To me his tax plan is one that sounds good on the surface, but the reality is that it doesn't work. Also I don't think I want to let Congress get their paws on a new tax that can be raised at a pure whim. Our sales tax here in our county was supposed to be a temporary levy of 2% when it was instituted some 50 years ago. We're just under 9% now and headed up at some future time.

[V]

The way it looks to me Cain's tax proposals would not produce nearly enough revenue and would be a boon to the very rich: adding a 9% Federal Sales Tax to that already charged by the states would devastate those earning the median US income or less

[Brewster]

I would point out that Canada has had the federal GST (Goods and Services Tax) for some time now, on top of the provincial sales tax which every province but Alberta has. People complain and grumble but it didn't kill our economy. I think a lot of countries have similar taxes in place. Everyone is trying to deal with the debt they racked up in the 80's and after.

I have also heard that the 9-9-9 tax would also be hardest on the poor and middle classes.

Originally Posted by V

The way it looks to me Cain's tax proposals would not produce nearly enough revenue and would be a boon to the very rich: adding a 9% Federal Sales Tax to that already charged by the states would devastate those earning the median US income or less

[diamondheaded]

the reality is we can all find something wrong with any politician out there as they all pretty much suck. In that we are all pretty much in full agreement

that cain is not a politician is reason enough for me to support him as politicians have put us in the mess we are in today!!!!

im ready for change - a real change - a dramatic change - not some penny ante casual token change

its time!!!!

that cain is at least making an effort to clean up the hideous socialistic mess of a bureaucracy which we simply call the IRS is honrable and courageous

its not like he can fuck things up any worse - is it ?

i mean really

electing another politician to put yet another cheap ass band aid on a triple by pass heart surgery is not the solution - its past time for a total overhaul and while his plan certainly has some limitations - the plan in principle is far more sound than most others i have seen

arguments can be easily made on either side of the flat/tax fair/tax issue....... numerous emerging countries have developed flat tax/fair tax systems that work very well (surprisingly enough our own government actually encouraged this)

will it be harder on poor people in this country - ummmmmmmmmmm yes - because NOW under cains plan they too will actually have to pay taxes

what a concept !!!!

a concept i certainly will support

[twinimini]

Rob, like you I find Cain to be a breath of fresh air because he isn't a lifetime politician. My main problem with him is that his "signature" item is so full of wholes that it just boggles the mind.

I agree with you that the tax code is complex beyond hope. The problem is the complexity of the code is how you get to the number called taxable income. Not everyone has just wages as income. The complexity of those who own rental properties, have their own businesses, or are heavily invested in the stock market or partnerships, is the main complexity of the tax laws. Whether there are three rates or thirty rates is almost irrelevant to the tax laws. The problem is what is taxable. Cain's proposal doesn't address that and is, in fact, little more than political rhetoric meant to get votes without regard for the consequences. That little mistake puts him in the same ball park with all the other politicos in my book. That is really sad as I was looking at him as the Republican White Knight, so to speak.

[diamondheaded]

Originally Posted by twinimini

I was looking at him as the Republican White Knight, so to speak.

ed ed ed

you do crack me up - i had no idea accountants could have a sense of humor

btw - i see where your buddy joe is headed back to my little mecca in san jose del cabo

rob

[twinimini]

Originally Posted by diamondheaded

ed ed ed

you do crack me up - i had no idea accountants could have a sense of humor

btw - i see where your buddy joe is headed back to my little mecca in san jose del cabo

rob

Rob, we do have a sense of humor, but we rarely show it. Otherwise the IRS will no longer take us seriously.

Joe is headed back to Cabo again? Damn, one of these days the three of us have got to get together and share a libation. Maybe we can even get Jamie in there with us.

[Brewster]

It's a sign of the times. Everyone wants a quick simple solution (9-9-9). But it's a hugely complex problem. Most are more interested in blaming someone for the mess than understanding what the mess actually is.

I think glimmers of truth are told on both sides. The trouble is most people don't want to hear "the truth" and they sure aren't going to vote for someone who has the courage to tell it.

Add to that, in a sound bite world, no-one gets the time to explain why they believe something to be true or how their solutions will be implemented and effective.

[twinimini]

Originally Posted by Brewster

It's a sign of the times. Everyone wants a quick simple solution (9-9-9). But it's a hugely complex problem. Most are more interested in blaming someone for the mess than understanding what the mess actually is.

I think glimmers of truth are told on both sides. The trouble is most people don't want to hear "the truth" and they sure aren't going to vote for someone who has the courage to tell it.

Add to that, in a sound bite world, no-one gets the time to explain why they believe something to be true or how their solutions will be implemented and effective.

That's one of the reasons I was hoping Christy would run. So far he seems like a guy who will tell it like it is. He even had the courage to tackle the teachers unions and in New Jersey that is something I have never seen any politician have enough courage to do.

[diamondheaded]

Originally Posted by twinimini

Damn, one of these days the three of us have got to get together and share a libation. Maybe we can even get Jamie in there with us.

would be nice

yeah joe is kind of like i am on it - probably will never make another trip to temptation cancun after going to cabo

think we are heading to cabo march 31-april 8

probably going to book after we get back from new orleans next week this time

rob

[twinimini]

I can't make N.O. as I have to teach in Fargo, ND. right before then and our girls will be in the NYS Marching Band Competition that weekend before. If you ever go to
Cabo outside of tax season we may end up joining you.

[Brewster]

Originally Posted by twinimini

Damn, one of these days the three of us have got to get together and share a libation. Maybe we can even get Jamie in there with us.

That would be great. But I can see everyone else spending about 30 seconds at our table and then scattering in all directions.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes. A Canadian author, Stephen Leacock (Said to be sort of a Canadian Mark Twain).

"Lord Ronald said nothing; he flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions."

I love that...rode madly off in all directions...LMAO. The imagery.

Anyway, it would be fun getting together. Maybe you guys could help me decide whether I am a Liberal Redneck or a Conservative Tree Hugger...lol

[twinimini]

Brewster, I think you're a reactionary Liberal with ambidexterous leanings. How's that for a middle of the roader?

[Brewster]

Originally Posted by twinimini

Brewster, I think you're a reactionary Liberal with ambidexterous leanings. How's that for a middle of the roader?

LOL...

Not sure if I agree totally with the reactionary part...at least that's my first reaction....lol

Hey, voice of experience. Cain is saying that there are already 4 or 5 levels of taxes in goods, before they arrive in your hands. His thinking is that those taxes will be replaced with his 9%.

Good luck with that....lol.

We got the same song here when they brought in the GST, a consumption sales tax. The federal manufacturers tax, which was at 12% at the time, was going to be rolled back and we would be paying the new 7% GST on the new reduced prices.

Think about it. What incentive is there for manufacturers to roll back their prices? They all watched to see if their competitors would publish new price books. When that didn't happen they pocketed the extra margins and consumers got to pay the additional 7% tax.

[Canadian Dos Equis fan]

Originally Posted by Brewster

LOL...

Not sure if I agree totally with the reactionary part...at least that's my first reaction....lol

Hey, voice of experience. Cain is saying that there are already 4 or 5 levels of taxes in goods, before they arrive in your hands. His thinking is that those taxes will be replaced with his 9%.

Good luck with that....lol.

We got the same song here when they brought in the GST, a consumption sales tax. The federal manufacturers tax, which was at 12% at the time, was going to be rolled back and we would be paying the new 7% GST on the new reduced prices.

Think about it. What incentive is there for manufacturers to roll back their prices? They all watched to see if their competitors would publish new price books. When that didn't happen they pocketed the extra margins and consumers got to pay the additional 7% tax.

I'm so glad that Chretien repealed that tax like he promised in the 93 election!

At least the Conservatives have dropped it to 5% during their term.