Another question about working in Cancun...

[Luckie]

My husband and I are planning on moving next summer, and we are both bodybuilders and personal trainers. From what I've heard there is a demand for trainers down there, but I'm wondering if it would be best to try to get a job as a PT or start our own business? Anyone out there with any insight on this, I would really appreciate your input!

[V]

[Nothing stated here is intended as, nor does it constitute, legal advice: posters to this forum are merely sharing their impressions, and present understanding, of the issues raised by your question.]

Luckie, there will be others with actual, first-hand experience with this who will, undoubtedly, be able to add more and, hopefully, correct any misimpressions I'm under! But, I've also looked at this question, and spoken with two different, Mexican attorneys about it.

You could, for example, start a wholly foreign owned, Mexican corporation; then, ask permission of immigration to work in the corporation, with whatever titles you, and your lawyer, feel are appropriate to officers in the corporation (interestingly, you have to get permission to work in order to manage the affairs of the corporation). The two of you could be the only shareholders, as I understand it, making it possible to pay yourselves either as shareholders, or as officers in the corporation, or some combination of the two.

The cost of a start up, using this method, has been related to me as between 8,000 and 13,000 pesos, depending mainly on what services and processes are included in the price quoted.

You may run into some limitations, based on a Mexican law that says you may "employ" no more than 10% foreigners, should you wish to hire any other foreigners as your business expands.

A not inconsequential, ongoing expense associated with operating a corporation will be the necessary services of an accountant who, understanding their importance in the system, will not be shy about setting their fees. Monthly reports of your operations to the tax authorities are required, as well as other annual reports, and biannual external audits. A good accountant not only be able to help you meet the requirements of the tax authorities, but will also be able to help you avoid running afoul of licensing, and other operating requirements.

As to the question of whether you, yourselves, could perform personal services such as you outlined, as officers of the corporation, I leave that up to which ever attorney you choose to consult, should you decide to explore this option, further. (In general, Mexican attorneys charge nothing for consultations, depending on the provision of services, exclusively, for their livelihood.)

If you are a Canadian person, then you have a right, under NAFTA, as I understand it, to spend time in Mexico, on no more than an FMT, to explore work options, and business opportunities, here.
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Alternatively, if you found a local employer who could obtain immigration's approval of a visa for you to work for them, you could work as an employee of a hotel, or other concern, with permission to do business in Mexico.

A third option is to attempt to get immigration's permission to work independently, as a self-employed person: this would require convincing immigration that you have unique skills and education, not found in the Mexican population, and a positive contribution to make to Mexican society- a tough row to hoe, I suspect, in this case, as the city is crawling with sports clubs, gyms, etc., with lots of Mexican citizens already offering their services, in the capacity you suggest.

[T.J.]

I would concur with what V says.

I would also suggest that you get the lay of the land before going to the trouble, expense and probable frustration of setting up a Mexican corporation, which you will no doubt need before you will be able to sign a lease for a place to operate your business. Therefore, my suggestion would be to seek employment with one of the many hotels with gyms/spas. As V more or less says, an employer cannot hire a foreignor for a job that a Mexican can and will do. Often the hotels will require English speaking employees for certain jobs, inasmuch as many of the guests do not speak Spanish. There are however, many trainers working in the hotels who are Mexican but can also speak English.

If you need an English speaking attorney for a consulation or more, I would recommend Jenny Vance. Her email is JennyVance2001 at yahoo dot com. Her office number is 887-3236. If calling from the US first dial 011-52-998, then the number. You can also call that number for free from the states on Vonage.

Good luck,

Good luck,
T.J.

[Luckie]

Thank you both for your replies. We are going down for a week after Christmas and hopefully we can do some of the leg work then. We are hoping to be able to train out of a gym or resort, and the we can get positions based on the fact that we are English speaking. I am hoping we can at least start out that way. I feel it would be way to risky and expensive to have to start out with our own business and all the expenses that would come with it. If any of you have ideas for us as to who we should see when we are down there or anyone to contact before we come let me know. We can use all the help we can get LOL!!

[Windknot]

I too appreciate the reply (and the question!) as it pretty much confirms what I have read/already been told. I just wonder about "a job that a Mexican would not otherwise be able to do" part of the laws.

I intend to move to the Cancun area, and would like to be a fishing guide in shallow water. All the guides I have met so far, have been Mexican, so naturally, a Mexican can do this job. But a Mexican can also be a personal trainer! In fact with the right education and training, a Mexican can do just about anything. Seems to me to be sort of a self-eliminating situation.

As for me, I am already familiar with the waters, and the species of fish found here, since they are the same as are found in the Florida Keys, where I was a guide for 14 years. All my clientele would be derived from the US. (In fact, I would politely refuse a charter from a Mexican, if he were to somehow find my number and call me. It would be very easy to refer him to a Mexican guide.) All my fees would be deposited into a US account.

Given the above account of my proposed operation, I wonder what y'all's opinion might be as to what I should do, in order to get set up legally. I'm already aware of the "other" (under-the-table) approach, and to be honest, it seems the simplest, although I'd rather do things on the up and up.

[V]

[Nothing stated here is intended as, nor does it constitute, legal advice: posters to this forum are merely sharing their impressions, and present understanding, of the issues raised by your questions.]

All my clientele would be derived from the US.*** All my fees would be deposited into a US account.

To conduct the activity you suggested, that of acting as a fishing guide for hire, for foreign visitors to Mexico, would perhaps be outside the scope of what is permitted on either a FMT, or a Visa Rentista. But, it seems to me, Windknot, there is always a way to structure a business to allow yourself to earn money in Mexico, legally.

Setting up a wholly foreign owned corporation, such as I mentioned previously, is one way to do it. You can pay yourself as an officer, or as a shareholder, or both, as I understand it, and would need permission of immigration to manage your corporation, that constituting a form of work. The exact relationship between these elements is the point at which the Mexican lawyer's expertise would come in handy!

It's quite a different matter to see yourself as a major shareholder, and officer, in a Mexican corporation, rather than as a "fishing guide," though your corporation could, perhaps, be devoted to a related activity. If there is a common mistake among foreigners coming to Mexico, it may be in "thinking too small." The special knowledge and skills they bring with them might better be applied to starting a business which employs Mexicans, training them and operating on a larger scale, than by doing the task they had in mind with their own hands- while still targeting the group they had in mind, and being very "hands on" in overseeing their business interests. I've seen a number of examples of this very thing, among the successful foreigners I've met, here. When you begin to look at things in this broader way, there are few limits to what you can do in Mexico.

Here is access to the text of the entire NAFTA treaty, if you'd like to see what's prohibited to those from Canada, and the U.S., in Mexico. It's not a long list, though the treaty itself is very long. Even if what you contemplate doing is on the prohibited list, it may not be prohibited to a Mexican Corporation which is wholly foreign owned- again a question best left to your Mexican lawyer.

http://www.sice.oas.org/trade/nafta/naftatce.asp

There are many activities you can legitimately do as a major shareholder, and officer with management responsibilities, in a Mexican Corp., even if it is your desire to stay small; and, both your and your wife can hold these responsibilities, and have these rights. Probably not among them- baiting hooks for your customers!

By employing just one Mexican to do everything necessary to your operation that falls outside the legitimate scope of your rights and duties, you could probably do nicely, while lending oversight, to protect your investment.
________________

SPEAKING GENERALLY
I know a number of foreigners working in Cancun, with official permission, doing jobs for which they are very qualified but, arguably, so would be many Mexicans. The difference may be availability, when you get right down to it, and the ability of a given company to persuade immigration that they cannot reasonably be expected to fill the position with anyone other than yourself, at this time. Convince an institute, organization, or company that you're the one for them, and they'll go to bat for you with immigration.

Some jobs in Mexico pay pretty well. For example, I spoke recently with one of the seven foreign employees of a wholly foreign owned, Mexican corporation which employs 135 Mexicans in its operations. They told me that, although the business itself was very successful, retention of key IT staff was a problem: although their top IT people were being paid approximately 60,000 pesos per month, they could find better work in Mexico City, and were restless. (For those of you with exceptional IT skills of a type useful to businesses- who also speak Spanish well- you might consider placing a "job wanted" ad in one of the major newspapers, if you'd be interested in finding a job, here.)

Although many Mexicans would be delighted to have a job paying a steady 10,000 pesos per month, this would probably not provide you the life-style you'd want, here, and you'd need another source of income, or a better job. To do better than that, you'll have to have an skill set that a Mexican Institute, Organization, Corporation or large business might think they really need, if you could find a way to make them aware of it.
________________

Luckie, you were right, on that other forum, to ask for details as to how the person referred to had worked as a personal trainer, as the poster had said nothing at all about the legal status of the trainer, in Mexico.

It seemed to me that your idea of seeing first if you could get a job, and permission to perform that job, was a good place to start. The large hotels are very experienced at what is needed to get permission for foreigners to work at various tasks within their operations.
________________

While what I've said here is based on information, it is not based on first hand experience. There is an excellent chance that one or more of the posters to this forum have had actual experience with these issues, and can flesh them out better than I can. Perhaps they will have something to add. V.

[V]

Luckie, did you ever get a response to your inquiry, asking for further details, on that other forum (see post, above)?
_____________________

I've mentioned on another thread that I found it took a tremendous amount of energy and effort to get into the job market here. Part of the reason is that a fair number of people come to Cancun, hoping to find work- both Mexicans and foreigners. For the foreigners, especially, it often takes a special effort to get employers to consider them, seriously. In my case, I had to call on the same offices, numerous times, to finally break through the "secretarial screen," and to get to a decision maker. Getting "up" for those visits got harder each time; but, in the end, the effort was rewarded- by finally making meaningful contact with people who could be of help.

[Windknot]

V....I think you might find the reason for that, is because there are so many transients in Cancun. Just like Key West, many years ago, people would show up (say in Oct. or Nov.) looking for work, only to quit in April, or whenever the weather got better up north. This naturally irks employers, who have spent valuable time and money in training this individual. But I don't know....just a hunch.

[Luckie]

Luckie, did you ever get a response to your inquiry, asking for further details, on that other forum (see post, above)?

Nope, no reply to that one V. I was hoping for something. We're going down the week of New Year's (did I already tell you that). I am thinking the best way to go about this is to maybe send a package to the gyms and fitness centers before we go, and then hopefully when we are down there we can meet with some of them. Its a tough one, I have no better ideas at the moment.

[V]

Luckie, unfortunately, there's probably no substitute for being here, on the ground, to have a chance to establish your bona fides sufficiently to get the opportunities you need. In my experience, emails have been next to useless, as a way of contacting people, here, unless they have something they want to sell to you! It's probably going to take face to face interaction with the decision makers, to get anywhere.

You could come, armed with a folio of photos of yourself, and your work; plus, a one-two minute video you could offer to show, on your own highly portable equipment, which would demonstrate, quickly, the best you've got to offer. Hopefully, you'd hit on someone at a hotel or resort with an interest in "jazzing up" their existing program with some "fresh blood," and see you as the person to do it! But, just getting a chance to talk to someone in a decision making position could prove a big challenge.

If you had time to get it going, and a willing operator, you could give "demo" programs for free, for the guests of a hotel or resort which, over time, would also give you a chance to demonstrate your skills, temperament, reliability and perseverance. Even to get a chance to do this, could be a hard sell; hence, the need for time, here; and, until you got a job offer, and got on the path to having an FM3, you wouldn't really be free to "work" in any meaningful way.

Additionally, finding a park in which expats seem to like to exercise might be a place where you could begin a process of showing off your skills, and attracting interest, which perhaps could, at some point in the future, then be parlayed into an opportunity.

Most of the people I know who have made a success of life, and work, here, are self-employed, usually in some form of personal service; or, they have started a business, and this will remain an option for you to explore, if you decide to, in the future. If you thought you had a unique product, and the financial backing to pull it off, you could start your own sports/training center, and employ a number of Mexicans in it, training them in your methods. In this way, there'd be no question regarding your right to do it, and you could get it going in a relatively short period of time.

I've been here eight months, so far, and have been in "start up" mode for the last four- counted from the first time I attempted to contact anyone, here, with work in mind- and, I've still got a long way to go before I'll have achieved what I came to do. Mexico has, for me, proven to be the toughest of countries that I've dealt with, in terms of getting started, and I've lived and worked in a total of six foreign countries, to this point.

There may be others who post here, who didn't find it such a hard row to hoe as I have, and they can add their experiences, if they choose to, because I don't want to discourage you in any way; but, what may be implied in what I've told you is that it takes some financial depth to get started here, and the "sad stories" I've heard from expats mostly involved them running out of prospects, and money, before they could complete their first year.

[V]

Luckie, something else you might consider as a "backup" position, if you're looking for adventure, and a change of environment, plus a chance to be in this part of the world, is a job on a cruise ship that plies the Caribbean. They will have fewer issues with hiring a "foreigner," will pay a living wage, and could offer you a nice opportunity to try something new.

If you don't have kids, this could be a fine time for you and your husband to do something different, and fun, together. Without knowing, I suppose you could offer yourselves to a cruise line as a "set"!

If this sounds like something worth exploring, you could go on line to see if there are any limitations on hiring couples.

[jenleib]

Originally Posted by V

Luckie,
Mexico has, for me, proven to be the toughest of countries that I've dealt with, in terms of getting started, and I've lived and worked in a total of six foreign countries, to this point.

It seems obvious that you have never tried to immigrate to the US and find a job there as a foreigner!!!

At least you can live here, as a retired or other status. The US kick you out of the country, or won't allow you to go back there if you have not been out of the country long enough, on the sole discretion of the immigration agent, since there is no law (I just contacted a lawyer).

I am not saying it is easy to find a job here, even less if you are more than 25, but you can live with an FM3. "Welcome to the US" is just a word, as a foreigner, you are NOT. I don't have all the info yet, but it doesn't seem possible to be self-employed there, and get a visa.

and like in ANY other country, you can't take a job that can be supposedly done by a local

[Luckie]

That's an interesting idea actually. But we have a son coming with us who will be 14. Maybe we could put him to work too LOL...

[V]

I think you're right, in general, Jenlieb. It is much easier in many ways to get permission to live and work in Mexico, than in the U.S. But, there are many people from around the world who go to the U.S. to live and work, legally, every year.

For example, those with special skills, unusual capabilities and high education or individual achievement can, and often do, get visas to live and work in the U.S. Examples of those, and others who are given visas, are high fashion models; some professional athletes, and some younger athletes of exceptional promise; renowned scientists, researchers and educators; medical professionals of a number of different types, including pharmacists and nurses and, less often, doctors; investors who are willing to invest one million U.S. dollars, and agree to hire at least eight people in the U.S.; not to mention fiances of U.S. citizens, teachers on exchange programs, students, summer interns, summer camp employees, au pairs, and those lucky enough to win the annual visa lottery, in which 50,000 visas are given to people from a large number of different countries- invited in just to add to the mix of people now living in the U.S. (Countries which are already well represented in the U.S., like Mexico, are excluded from the visa lottery. In the part of the U.S. I'm from, for example, about 30% of the population have Spanish surnames, and all official documents must be printed in both Spanish and English.)

As I mentioned on the "Why do you live in Cancun" thread, one of the reasons we chose Mexico was we felt we would be allowed in, on conditions we were prepared to try to meet. And, you're right, we're grateful for that, though I suspect you've met people from the U.S. who have been denied permission to live and work, in Mexico.
___________________

I'm happy to be a U.S. passport holder, but those who I envy are the ones who hold passports from the EU, who are free, as I understand it, to choose from any of about 25 of the most interesting, historic and beautiful countries on the planet in which to live, and work.

[jenleib]

That's nice of you, and you are right. I do have unusual capabilities, I just have to convince someone to "buy" them :lol:

My EU passport is not free, neither is my Canadian one. I am "free" to travel from one country to another one, but Europe is not as big as the US, remember? You can do the same inside the US. The Mexican one, well... I got it for 10 years, so I forgot how much it cost me. I just remember that I have been very very lucky to get my citizenship before the exam :wink:

Yes, I love France and other European countries for the culture, food, shopping etc... But I love warm climate... if not I would still be in Toronto. I felt very at home there... in July . I had an exciting job.

I have other countries in mind, I am trying hard to achieve something. Gathering a lot of info. I am very persistent.

I know many people from many countries who gave up on Mexico (Cancun especially) because mostly they were denied to work here, not having skills or not accepting low wages, but also they couldn't adjust to... hmmm.... the culture. It took me 10 years. There were the same kind who left Africa, Canada also...

Oh, BTW, I just read in a forum that visas for nurses were closed. Not sure...

[T.J.]

Originally Posted by jenleib

and like in ANY other country, you can't take a job that can be supposedly done by a local

Jenleib,

What on earth are you talking about. In the US any foreignor with a Green Card most certainly can get a job that "can be supposedly done by a local."

There are exceptions, of course, like a foreign born person cannot be President, except of course for BO who still seemingly has not provided evidence of his birthplace, but don't get me started on that.

Point being, you are NOT CORRECT in the qoute at the beginning of this post.

[V]

Jenlieb, I'll go out on a limb, here, and suggest that Mexican nurses are not subject to the freeze you spoke of (it's officially referred to as "regression"), owing to the provisions of NAFTA.

And, please understand, I'm not jumping on you, I just want to check out what you ran across on the internet. Please send us the website, and I'll have a look at it. I could be under a misimpression.

[jenleib]

Originally Posted by T.J.

What on earth are you talking about.
Point being, you are NOT CORRECT in the qoute at the beginning of this post.

TJ, I think there are a few options:
- you have not being carefully following Luckie's thread
- I have not been clear enough (in that case you can nicely ask me to be more explicit)
- you have not read my message
- you have already been drinking too much

What else? Please don't be so aggressive!

Of course a green card holder can get any job!!!

I was talking, as Luckie asked, about applying to a visa for employment. She was talking about Cancun, so I wanted to point that it is the same in the US (much more difficult), and any other country that I know of.

V. I don't think at all you are jumping on me :lol: . I have been working a lot, went to many sites, and was not talking about Mexican nurses, but nurses in general, wanting to get a visa to the US (my mind is not here anymore, sorry). For sure, it is on City-Data, I will find the exact link and will post it.

I didn't intend to "steal" Luckie's thread, but willing to put that problem into perspective. I find that exchange of ideas interesting.

[rawkus]

T.J.:

"I will show you President Obama's birth certificate when you show me Sarah Palin's high school diploma." :lol:

Seriously though: You CAN take a job that a "local" can do, BUT: Most countries have this law that Jenleib mentioned.

Now, its not impossible, but it requires most employers to prove to immigration/government WHY a foreigner should get the job that a local can do.

I have worked in US, Australia, Thailand, Finland, Italy, Spain and Portugal.

In each and every one of these places the law stated that I would have to have skills that a local who was applying for the same job did NOT have.

All the companies that hired me claimed that "He has the languages we need for this position" - I speak Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Norwegian, English, some German and Spanish - the law in Australia required the company to interview several locals in order to first of all give the job to a local. Not very likely to find an Australian who speaks more than 3-4 languages, and thus Immigration had no choice but to sign all the papers etc.

Same story for me in US and all the other places.

Thailand was the place where I had most problems with this issue, but it was soon straightened out.

Also, the Green Card seems to be very particular for U.S. In Australia you can not get a similar visa - you will have too look for a company to sponsor you. If you apply and acquire Permanent Residency status(later Citizenship) then you can switch jobs like a "local".

Hell, you guys even have a lottery for Green Cards..??

[jenleib]

V. I found the info:

"Just being a nurse and certified by US standards does not mean visa or GC since the program specifically for nurses has been closed. There are still exceptions for medical staff open to working in areas with shortages."

in http://www.city-data.com/forum/legal...rida-uk-3.html (wanting to move to Florida from UK). I guess it is the same from another country.

[V]

Hell, you guys even have a lottery for Green Cards..??

We do, indeed, Rawkus. Read the thread, "Immigrating to the U.S.", for more details.

[It's my attempt to move this discussion off this thread, because it's pulling the discussion away from the theme of working in Mexico, a very important topic for many readers of "Living in Cancun". (Not casting any blame, to be sure, as I'm principally responsible for the digression. Sorry, Luckie, and Windknot, and others, for my role in this!)]

V.

[V]

Anybody ever read a figure on how many foreigners are working in Qunitana Roo, with official permission of the Mexican Government (FM3)?

I can't imagine, but I know a modest number of them, myself. They work in travel related industries, or time share sales/management, for the most part, it seems. A few teach English. Many more have businesses of their own.

I also know other expats who work in a self-employed capacity. Often their work involves commerce of some kind, or an offer of personal services, over the internet. They do not, for the most part, have official permission to work here; but, they do not enter the job market in Mexico to any degree at all, nor do they offer their services or products in the Mexican market: they, perhaps therefore, do not need permission to work. (Whether they need permission would be a good question for a Mexican attorney, immigration specialist, should you be interested in pursuing that type of activity in Mexico.)

One self-employed work possibility- for those who have a wide range of skills necessary to home improvements/remodeling- is the option of buying and remodeling homes and condos to U.S. standards, insofar as possible, with resale in mind. At the time of this posting, the market for resales is soft; but, over time, it should improve, and perhaps the baby boomers from the U.S. and Canada will be moving to Cancun in larger numbers, in the years ahead, looking for affordable housing that suits their tastes. (There is nothing in this that strikes me as requiring official permission to work in Mexico.) With there being a paucity of western style, less expensive housing options on the market, this could fill a niche.
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For those who are serious about living and working here, learning Spanish can play a big role in your success. I had the very draining experience of discovering that, after I did get a chance to speak with decision makers in the process of developing my work here, none of them spoke English, and I struggled through meeting after important meeting with a Spanish learned in school, forty-seven years ago! (Sure wish I'd have paid better attention in class!) :?

Now, four months later, my Spanish has much improved, and I just started to take lessons, which should make a difference, over time.

Among the foreigners I've met who've been most successful here, each and every one of them has learned to speak Spanish. If anyone would be interested in small group lessons, here in Cancun, please PM me.

[V]

I guess nobody's got any idea how many of us there are working here. (I'll ask, next time I'm in immigration.)
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We've talked about the need for official permission to work, for some occupations. But, making multiple trips to immigration, and getting your FM3, is not necessarily the end of the process.

For those who are self-employed, there will be trips to the tax office to register with Mexico's tax authority, the S.A.T. This process is commenced online, but you will have to visit the tax office personally to complete the process. See the website, below, for details regarding documents you will be required to produce to complete the enrollment process.

www.sat.gob.mx/sitio_internet/21_12672.html

_____________________

An additional requirement I ran into recently was a demand from a prospective employer for a "Carta de Antecedentes no Penales" (official statement of no criminal record, in Mexico). That one had me stumped until I learned you get those at the Procuradora de Justicia del Estado, corner of Ixcaret and Kabah. Green and white building, you enter through a security check- like at the airport- then follow the signs deep into the building. They're open 9-12 PM, only, M-F, for this administrative procedure. It costs just 115 pesos. (As with other admin offices, don't go at opening time: the line was 80 or so long, at 9 AM!)

Just when I thought I had everything covered, I was told I would need a "Constancia". To my relief, that one just turned out to be a sworn statement that I'd never committed a crime involving a violation of trust while working for the State of Quintana Roo. No special trips to unfamiliar government offices would be required!

To work here, you do what they require and make as many trips as necessary, to as many government offices as necessary. The requirements are usually detailed but, other than the time it takes, it's not really all that difficult, once you're got your paperwork together (now that can be difficult!).

[mixz1]

Originally Posted by T.J.

There are exceptions, of course, like a foreign born person cannot be President, except of course for BO who still seemingly has not provided evidence of his birthplace, but don't get me started on that.

TJ-I'll give you one and take one away. First the take away:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...ama-birth.html

And I'll give you one: If you look at my post regarding the situation with flu vaccine delivery in the US, http://www.cancuncare.com/forum/view...3788&start=15:
If this situation would have happened during the eight dark years of your guy, we liberals would have been screaming for Arbusto Boy's head. How Obama is escaping the same fate is beyond me.

And while we're playing with fun accusations, McCain wasn't born in the US. At least Hawaii is/was a state. McCain was not born within the borders of any of the States of the Union. Ain't facts fun? BTW, that fact did not disqualify his candidacy.

[RiverGirl]

Wasn't McCain born on a US Base in Panama? So that's US soil. Being born on US soil gives you the right to become for prez. Afaik a US citizen born off US soil cannot become prez because they are not a "natural born citizen."

[V]

All we need now is for the holocaust deniers to step forward....

Let's see, "working in Cancun," if you were born on U.S. soil, you can apply for permission to work in Cancun: if you were not, you can still apply for permission to work here.

[mixz1]

Originally Posted by RiverGirl

Wasn't McCain born on a US Base in Panama? So that's US soil. Being born on US soil gives you the right to become for prez. Afaik a US citizen born off US soil cannot become prez because they are not a "natural born citizen."

Congratulations! You've won Final Jeopardy! But you poached on a question intended for TJ.

As I said, it didn't disqualify McCain.

[RiverGirl]

Oops. Sorry. I was up all night shopping online for Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster paraphernalia (I kid you not). So my reading and comprehension skills today are rotten.

[V]

Hey, RG, if we were all burned at the stake for going "off topic", there'd be none of us left!

[Luckie]

Originally Posted by V

Hey, RG, if we were all burned at the stake for going "off topic", there be none of us left!

Well I am still reading, but we're a long ways from the original topic!