This will really help the tourism..... :(

[Life_N_Cancun]

Great now we have THIS to help keep the tourism down.. any bets on how long before the news channels show Cancun's beaches while reporting this story?

[TraceyUk]

Tragic isn't it. CNN have been all over this story today.
Tracey

[RiverGirl]

Most victims are rival traffickers...

The Mexican Govt always seems to blame the victim. If the victim was involved with traffickers then the Govt doesn't feel any real pressure to find the killers. Maybe this time there will be some pressure to see that justice is served.

[Gringation]

*sigh* Crap.

[CancunMole]

An interesting read IMO.

February 2010 ATLANTIC MAGAZINE

Mexico’s Drug Fiasco

"Fighting the scourge with soldiers and guns, a strategy endorsed by the U.S., has only bred more violence. Now the beleaguered president may be ready to try something new."

~snip~

Through a plan called the Mérida Initiative, President Barack Obama’s administration has encouraged Mexico’s militarization by promising $1.4 billion in funds to help the country fight its drug war. The three-year aid package is intended to provide weapon-detection technology, surveillance and intelligence-gathering equipment, helicopters and training for police, prison and military personnel. In actuality, however, little aid has yet been forthcoming from most of the U.S. defense and private security companies (like Northrop, Dyncorp and Blackhawk) that were awarded the Initiative contracts, and many have decried the Initiative’s overall lack of transparency. According to the Mexican daily El Universal, 70 percent of the Initiative’s funds are tied up in such nonproductive contracts in the United States.

~snip~

“The success of Mexico's frontal assault on drug production and trafficking is about as unlikely as the prospect that American society will clamp down on demand,” Castañeda writes in this month’s Foreign Policy.

~snip~

Mexico’s Drug Fiasco - Magazine - The Atlantic

IIRC, Mexico has decriminalized a lot of the smaller drug possessions. Now if only the the USA with its great DEMAND for illicit drugs would smarten up and follow suit by legalizing most current illegal stuff flowing over the border and TAX it as tobacco and booze are taxed.... then maybe, just maybe the SUPPLY/DEMAND routes with all the associated violence from over the border would begin to dissipate... Takes Two Sides To Create A Mess like this and IMO, it begins with DEMAND and is followed by SUPPLY.

[T.J.]

With regards to Rivergirl's "quote" which seems to be out of context as to this incident, I did not see or hear anything suggesting that any of these victims were in any way trafficing. Did I miss anything?

And Obama is outraged. Well, as one American I am outraged by his administration and what he/it is doing to a great nation.

Likewise I am outraged about these folks getting gunned down by the bad guys, but I think the Rivergirl quote, in the big scheme of things, is accurate. It always seems that it is bad guys offing other bad guys. On the other hand, something caused this one, didn't it?

[RiverGirl]

TJ - I don't imagine that these particular victims were traffickers. I also believe that some amount of the victims of other Mexican drug war killings are not traffickers either. A few weeks ago a bunch of teenagers were killed in Juarez, were they traffickers? I doubt it. My point in quoting that line from the article is that the Mexican Govt always seems to say that the victims were guilty...and the press reports that...but how often is that just B.S.? How often are the victims innocent or not affiliated with the traffickers?

People feel that this drug war is just between the rival factions that want to move the drugs, that it's a turf war. People feel that the victims are guilty, this makes people feel safe. "Let them kill each other off, no harm to us." But I don't buy it. I think that sometimes the victims are actually just that, victims.

[RiverGirl]

Couple slain in Mexico shooting had baby on the way - CNN.com

Interesting that both cars that were shot up were white SUVs. And it says the party was at the US Cosulate, so they definitely targeted Consulate workers, but maybe didn't know exactly who they were going after, maybe they were just shooting up any white SUV leaving the Consulate.

[kathy_caribe]

Originally Posted by RiverGirl

TJPeople feel that this drug war is just between the rival factions that want to move the drugs, that it's a turf war. People feel that the victims are guilty, this makes people feel safe. "Let them kill each other off, no harm to us." But I don't buy it. I think that sometimes the victims are actually just that, victims.

This is very true. When the RV'er in Mazatlan was shot during a robbery attempt (in his RV) most on the RV forum speculated that he and his wife MUST have been narcotraficantes because ONLY the narcos get hit. Um, no. But it certainly allows *you* to bury your head in the sand if *you* think *you* are perfectly safe solely due to the fact that *you* aren't in the narco world.

(I was using the *s to indicate I wasn't speaking to YOU, RG)

[Steve]

I'd be surprised if there was anyone naive enough here who thought they were "perfectly safe" in Mexico solely because they weren't involved in the Narco business. There isn't any place in the World that's perfectly safe, just more safe or less safe comparatively.

The fact of the matter remains as I see it anyway, and there's nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise, is that I now live in a safer place than I used to before I moved here.

[V]

Same here, Steve, I'm wary on the streets of Cancun Centro, just as I was on the streets of Dallas, Texas, yet feel just as safe. The only places I felt safer in were China, and Vietnam, both communist countries: seems there's a price to be paid for individual freedom!

In Hanoi, all bars/clubs/restaurants had to be closed by 11 PM, after which the streets were deserted, and quiet- a sharp contrast with the noise, traffic, and activity during the day.

Aside from the narco related violence, which definitely affects those involved in it far more than the rest of us, Mexico strikes me as being in the middle ground, so far as personal safety goes, with the hotel zone the very safest place in Mexico.

[TraceyUk]

The hotel zone is fairly safe- but I have lived in many countries all over the world and this is the only place where my house has been broken into.Its the only place where I have friends who have been personally affected by kidnappings and murders ( and no I do not mix with Narcos!) Its the only place where friends have bodyguards.I hear stuff everyday that makes me wary - that did not happen in the UK. There is an undercurrent here that I am always aware of. Would it make me leave? No definately not. Does it make me cautious- oh yes!
Tracey

[V]

TraceyUK, sorry to hear about your house being broken into.

Its the only place where I have friends who have been personally affected by kidnappings and murders ( and no I do not mix with Narcos!) Its the only place where friends have bodyguards.

Would you mind clarifying something in your post, did you mean to say that kidnappings and murders you spoke of had occurred in the hotel zone?

Since I don't know anyone in Cancun who has a bodyguard, can you explain why those friends you spoke of need one?

[GONZO]

V maybe they dont want to be kidnapped or murdered.....just thinking outloud.

[V]

Hi, Gonzo. Anyone who is willing to pay for a bodyguard considers themselves to be a target. I want to know why, in the case of those TraceyUK speaks of.

The problem with her post is that it suggests serious crime, kidnappings and murder, in the hotel zone, and a need for bodyguards for people, generally. I don't believe this is what she meant. For this reason, I'm interested in some clarification, if she wants to give us some.

[Life_N_Cancun]

Originally Posted by V

Hi, Gonzo. Anyone who is willing to pay for a bodyguard considers themselves to be a target. I want to know why, in the case of those TraceyUK speaks of.

Your post seems a little incendiary V. One does not need to be affiliated with the criminal side to be a target. Simply being of means (or appearing to be well off), is enough to get some unwanted attention, and as I'm sure you know, many people "of means" live in the hotel zone. I know several business owners who have been extorted over the years, and in some cases, saying "NO" can put yourself and your family in potential danger, which could lead to the afore mentioned bodyguards, or other security measures as a precautionary step. There is also sometimes a social status element of presenting yourself as being someone important by having guards.

[V]

Exactly right, Life, some of Cancun's richest people live in the hotel zone, or own homes there, and they may rightly consider themselves targets. The risk they run is not the risk the visitor to Cancun runs, which I believe is very low. Tracey's post suggests she may think otherwise.

That's why I felt Tracey should be given a chance to clear up the false impression her post could create, if that's what it is. Others seem to want to do it for her. I just don't know what she'd have to say about it, herself, if given the chance.

[TraceyUk]

V
no I do not think tourists are at risk here , but people who live here do believe they can be targeted.Being "of means" can make someone a target for kidnapping and extortion. I could give examples but believe in keeping peoples confidentiality.Also many , in fact most of our friends who may be considered affluent do not live in the Hotel Zone.
Tracey

[V]

Thanks, Tracey, for getting back to us. It almost pays not to be too rich, in many parts of the world.

Still, I might like to try it, once!

[rawkus]

The only "really bad" incident I can recall from the HZ is the slaying of the Cuban(?) approx 2 years ago...

Cant remember(maybe don't really care..?) exactly where, but I remember the media after... Could have been "Coral Negro" - the market.

He was shot, execution style, right in front of tourists.

I saw the all but pleasant pictures in "De peso"(off course!!) when going to work in a taxi.

EDIT: I also remember a taxi driver who was executed around KM3 or 4 in the HZ last year...

Note: These are IN the HZ, so Im not counting the related ones that occurred outside our 23 KM long strip.



I know for a fact a lot of stuff is being moved through the HZ and back(when you work with different hotels for a year, you can NOT miss it, trust me), but have never been threatened, just get the odd look when you witness packages that aren't meant for the public eyes.

This also includes people(mostly Cubans..) who are on their way to USA.

I have stopped going out in the HZ, not because Im scared, but because its impossible to even take a breath of "fresh" air outside any club without hearing "What you want? Blow? Weed?" etc.

For me its not the violence in the HZ(considering I only know of the one incident), but the disgust with the amount of drugs etc.

What mostly bugs me in the HZ is the traffic, the sales people, the taxis and the cops, haha

[V]

To say that the hotel zone is safe is a relative statement, of course: no place is completely safe, as we all know. However, the only death of a tourist under suspicious circumstances that I'm aware of occurring in the year I've been here was of a lady in her late thirties, apparently from Florida, whose body was discovered by passer byes at seaside, on Delfines Beach, at around 1 AM. They summoned the police.

The coroner said her actual cause of death was drowning, suggesting that she was still alive, but perhaps unconscious, when placed in the water; and, that she'd been dead about two hours when discovered. Her body had apparently been weighed down by rocks placed in her backpack, but the shallowness of the water, coupled with the tide going out, revealed her presence. Other than the rocks in her backpack, there was no evidence of foul play: she still had money and other personal effects on her person, indicating she hadn't been robbed. Although reported in detail in the newspaper, I never heard whether anyone had been accused in her death.

[Life_N_Cancun]

Humm.. I don't recall hearing about that story... "rocks" in a backpack.....? I wonder if perhaps those "rocks' may have been coral or something... sounds (no pun intended) a little fishy... and obviously it must not have been too much weight or she would not have "washed up"....

But as I'm sure you realize, families almost always scream "cover up" and "murder" rather than admit their loved one may have been doing something foolish/dangerous.

I'm constantly amazed that more tourists don't meet their end's here given the combination of booze, surf, and inhibition.

[V]

Well, you were right to question the amount of rocks in the backpack, and the thoroughness with which the body was hidden, if it was a case of foul play.

Also, our posts crossed as I was amending the detail about "washing up", as I recalled it had more to do with the shallowness of the water there that the body was revealed. (Whether it was a moon lit night, and other factors that might come into play in interpreting how the body came to be discovered, I'll leave up to the "Monks" among us.)

[RiverGirl]

I'm constantly amazed that more tourists don't meet their end's here given the combination of booze, surf, and inhibition.

It happens here, all the time. It just doesn't hit the papers much.

Immigration has to see the bodies out of the country, so they keep records of all tourist deaths here. The rate is about 1 a week or 1 every 5 or 6 days, I think. They die from drowning, drinking, heart attacks, etc. There are a lot of deaths here by choking on your own vomit...eww. There are also an alarming number of tourist deaths from car accidents...tourist vans crashing on the highway to Tulum. And there are the falls from balconies, those usually make it into the paper, it seems.

[ToriB]

Originally Posted by V

To say that the hotel zone is safe is a relative statement, of course: no place is completely safe, as we all know. However, the only death of a tourist under suspicious circumstances that I'm aware of occurring in the year I've been here was of a lady in her late thirties, apparently from Florida, whose body was discovered by passer byes at seaside, on Delfines Beach, at around 1 AM. They summoned the police.

The coroner said her actual cause of death was drowning, suggesting that she was still alive, but perhaps unconscious, when placed in the water; and, that she'd been dead about two hours when discovered. Her body had apparently been weighed down by rocks placed in her backpack, but the shallowness of the water, coupled with the tide going out, revealed her presence. Other than the rocks in her backpack, there was no evidence of foul play: she still had money and other personal effects on her person, indicating she hadn't been robbed. Although reported in detail in the newspaper, I never heard whether anyone had been accused in her death.

I remember this story, and I think it happened while on one of my trips here last year, so January or March....it was early in the year. But your details about it are what I heard as well...and also the relation to drug trafficing or prostitution. They have to label the victim in some negative light, as nothing is just random here when it comes to murder....from what I gather.

[Life_N_Cancun]

Originally Posted by RiverGirl

The rate is about 1 a week or 1 every 5 or 6 days, I think. They die from drowning, drinking, heart attacks, etc.

Still amazing to me... 1 a week out of how many millions per year...? is that for the whole of the Riviera Maya area or ONLY Cancun?

[Life_N_Cancun]

Originally Posted by ToriB

nothing is just random here when it comes to murder....from what I gather.

I remember there was a big hoopla about the couple that was killed a few years back while here for a wedding.. I think in the end most agreed that it was other wedding guests who did it, but there was a HUGE effort to place blame on Mexico/Mexicans... don't know what ever became of it.. but it was played up big time in the press.. and they kept saying "Cancun" the whole time and it wasn't even in Cancun as I recall but further South!

[RiverGirl]

Still amazing to me... 1 a week out of how many millions per year...? is that for the whole of the Riviera Maya area or ONLY Cancun?

That's the foreigners who died here and whose bodies departed Mexico via the Cancun airport. So that's the vast majority of tourist deaths in Cancun and Riviera Maya.

And some of those people would have had that heart attack sooner or later anyway.

I agree. It's a low number, I think. Being a tourist here isn't dangerous. But it gets a little more dangerous if you ride in a car, get drunk or go swimming...and drunken swimming is especially dangerous from the data I've seen.

One interesting aside in this is that a number of people have told me that Mexico doesn't embalm bodies. It seems really common here to hold the funeral the next day after someone dies, and if you don't do embalming, then that makes sense.

Yet these bodies of foreigners are embalmed (or cremated) before going on the plane (the embalming certs are attached to the rest of the death docs). So embalming does happen here all the time, it's just somehow not common among Mexicans...or maybe they just don't want to pay for it... Creepy, but I thought it was interesting.

[Life_N_Cancun]

Thanks RiverGirl.. that is a really low number if its for the whole area...


As for the embalming thing.. it think its a cost issue more than anything for locals, and really only needed if you want an open casket funeral weeks after the death, which then requires storage/refrigeration and all of that.. which is more expensive.

Personally.. if I were in the US and someone died here.. I think I would insist that we all travel to the tropical vacation spot to hold the service.. rather than bring the body back . When its all said and done, I'd bet its cheaper anyway given the US costs for services...and you get a mini holiday out of it....

[RiverGirl]

I don't know about the costs. But grieving people tend to make decisions they might not otherwise make, and they probably aren't in the mood for a vacation. Seems to me that cremation is the best because then there's no cargo fee for the airline, and no casket to buy.