Another killing at Plaza Solare.

[V]

In the thread, "Interview with an Intelligence Operative," also found on this forum, Jack, the operative, makes his argument for why legalization of drug use doesn't get serious consideration, as follows:

DS: There are people on both sides of the border who are calling for the legalization of some drugs. Wouldn’t this go a long way towards shutting down the cartels, much as the repeal of prohibition did in the U.S. with the organized crime?

Jack: It’s way more complicated than that, Dave. Legalization will not happen because too many people, many in high places, have too much to lose.

DS: Okay, I get that the cartels would be opposed to it, but who else?

Jack: The major banks in the U.S. are very powerful, as we have learned in the past few years. They have been laundering drug money for a long time, maybe as much as $40 billion a year. Wachovia, HSBC, American Express Bank, Bank of America, Wells Fargo – they have all been involved. Generally they pay a fine that is a fraction of the money they have made. So it’s a good deal for them. Believe me, they don’t want anything to change, and they let the lawmakers know that with their contributions.

There is also the private prison system now so widespread in the U.S.. They pay a lot of money into our lawmaker’s fundraisers to keep drugs illegal. It started with Nixon’s “War On Drugs” in the early 1970’s when smoking pot was put into the same category as harder drugs. The U.S. is now the most imprisoned society in the world and many of those prisoners are there on drug convictions. About one-half of all drug arrests are for marijuana. The prison system has a huge stake in keeping all drugs illegal. They make money by having a constant flow of prisoners – big money.

And there are the arms and weapons manufacturers.

DS: Please explain. You mean because all of the small arms that get into Mexico?

Jack: Yes, but there are much bigger players than that. The Merida Initiative authorizes the U.S. to spend $1.5 billion to help Mexico in fighting the cartels. Much of this money filters to U.S. security companies and manufacturers, such as General Atomics Aeronautical Systems and Boeing.

To read the rest of his comments, see- http://www.mexicopremiere.com/?p=5233

[TraceyUk]

and a shooting in Playa also Ejecutan a un michoacano en Playa del Carmen - Grupo SIPSE, sipse.com

[rawkus]

Another execution took place yesterday at Multiplaza(Kabah and Avenida Los Tules, I think..)

The victim seems to be a police named Pedro Segovia Hernández(policía de la Dirección de Seguridad Pública).

He had his day-off and was on his bike/moped on the parking-lot, around 1-2pm. Supposedly a minimum of 18 shots where fired at the victim. I just saw the picture... Wish I hadn't.

A bystander was injured as well when she was walking "nearby" with her husband and young child. Might have heard wrong on the radio, but they mentioned something about a bullet grazing her cheek.

[V]

Used to, when people asked me whether I was worried about my safety, I'd reply, "No, I'm from the U.S."

Two days ago, there was a headline saying 64 people had been murdered in the State of Quintana Roo (population 1.3 milliom), so far, this year. This latest shooting would make 65. The story that went with the headline said 49 of those were killings of one drug gang member by another.

Owing to my tendency to be dismissive of the danger, here, I decided to check to see how many murders had occurred this year in Dallas (population 1.1 million), where I'm from. I couldn't find numbers as fresh as those published here, but extrapolating from the total killed to the end of July, this year, the number killed in Dallas would be 91, so far, making the City of Dallas a more deadly violent place by nearly 50% than the State of Quintana Roo.

[Windknot]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this, but in light of the slap in the face that Mexico received from the US, both during and after this Fast and Furious fiasco, I say they should have a meeting with the 2 main cartel heads (Gulf and Sinaloa) and say,

"Listen...we are now going to look the other way. Let's sit down and allocate to each cartel, specific routes to the US. The both cartels will honor the other's routes. As long as you are clandestine and do not carry out your operations in the open, you will be allowed to conduct this business, much like before. (Calderon)

In return, after an amnesty period where any splinter group members may voluntarily join you, you agree to move to eliminate those splinter groups that might form or already be in existance. You also agree to promote the safety of the Mexican people and any and all foreigners who might be visiting or residing in Mexico. Kidnappings and extortion must stop."

I really hate to be this way, but the US is doing absolutely nothing to help the Mexican Government. There are NO new initiatives to curb drug use and demand in the US. Then as mentioned, you have Fast and Furious. Not only did this program kill many Mexican people and an American Border Patrol agent, but then the ATF went and promoted 3 of the agents directly responsible. I am glad that at least some of that got overturned, but the intent was there.

The US wants the drugs......well, I'm getting ready to say, "Let 'em have them." The Mexican people would surely be better off and we would be safer as well.

[rawkus]

V: For me its not the amount of people being killed(Q Roo v/s Dallas), but rather the fact that you can get unlucky, even as a bystander, considering that the assailants aren´t usually the best shooters in in town.

Take for example the woman getting grazed by the bullet(according to media, so dont shoot the messenger) - Im sure she will feel better if/when people tell her "but they mainly target each other, so no worries".

As long as these vermin kill themselves, I dont really care, but it aint all that picture perfect, considering people get hit in the face(!) when walking nearby, mid day.

IF it ever happens nearby where I am, I sure as hell hope that the shooter/s all got perfect scores at the gun range lately


@Windknot: Im happy you bring up the fact that the need for drugs in the US seems to feed the smuggling.

Ive met some really dense people when it comes to this. Usually they resort to literally screaming once the discussion reaches a sensitive point, such as the drug use of the American people.

The most common answer I get(9 out of 10) is: "This is Mexico's problem, not ours!" Hmmmmm... I have a feeling they wouldnt say the same if US switched places with Mexico geographically, for, lets say 5 years...

I think the expression "Drugs go north, money and guns go south" says a lot. A report that I saw from the DEA, stated that some 85% of the firearms used by the cartels came from the US.

[V]

The US wants the drugs......well, I'm getting ready to say, "Let 'em have them." The Mexican people would surely be better off and we would be safer as well.

It's impossible to talk about the drug related violence here (most of it) without mentioning the U.S. role in it, as you and Rawkus have done, Windknot. The police officer recently killed was killed by fire from an AK47, a weapon you can buy in the U.S., since the gun lobby killed the ban on such weapons that the Clinton administration had put in place.

But, allowing the drug cartels to stay in place, with their billions, is not a viable option, that being a threat to the very survival of the nation. They are not benign institutions. They buy weapons, and government officials, around the world.

Here's my earlier comment from another thread,

What Portugal did was good, and produced positive results which are measurable. But, in my opinion, they didn't go far enough by far, by merely decriminalizing drug use. They left in place the criminal syndicates which supply the drugs, the violence inherent in the drug trade, and the dangers created by allowing unlicensed and unregulated production of the substances people put into their bodies.

I would go further, licensing and regulating the production of the drugs people want to use in much the same way alcohol is dealt with. This would guarantee the quality of the drugs; then, I would allow the open, but regulated sale of the drugs- again, much as is done with alcohol.

Purchasers would be required to sit through a video presentation which acquaints them with the proper use, dose, and hazards of use of the drug purchased.

Few seem even willing to consider such a step, much less engage in a dialog which could lead to change. Well known people who've attempted to engage on this subject have been met with stoney silience, from both the users, and the nonusers. Interesting....

_____________________

[TraceyUk]

We can compare all we like - what really matters is what is happening now in the City we live in. For me (and I may be a small town girl from Europe) shootings at 2 in the afternoon in public spaces are NOT bloody normal !!!
Am I truly the only person that feels the "undercurrent" every day ? Is it only me that worries when cars flash me from behind when driving at night? Am I the only parent that has had the "we have your kid " fake kidnapping call and cried even though I knew it was fake ?
The longer we live here I think we become slightly immune .We certainly enjoy our daily lives but the truth is this place is becoming less secure every day . Its sad but true .

[Cancun Fun]

I often get the same question, "Do you feel safe in Cancun?" and my answer has always been the same...Yes I do. However, my answer is a little different than it once was. Five years ago, I felt totally safe in any part of Cancun day or night. I still feel totally safe but that is because I don't go to certain areas and for sure not at night. So I am still feeling safe and sound in my own little bubble but that bubble is much smaller than it was 5 years ago.

[Cancun Fun]

Our nights of running around the dive bars, playing pool and drinking til daylight have been replaced by goin to bed at 9pm. My house to me is the safest place in the world!

[V]

Am I truly the only person that feels the "undercurrent" every day ?

The ongoing effort by the Federal Government of Mexico to crush the drug cartels unleashed a wave of violence, largely by causing them to begin engaging in a kind of internecine warfare, and to begin shifting their income producing away from drugs and into extortion, with violence. There is, as a result, far more violent crime now, than say five years ago, as you suggested, Tracey.

However, any "undercurrents" you feel I suspect have more to do with those people you bump into, here, living as you do. So many of those who are better off, in Mexico, got that way through shady associations. It's no wonder that something as innocent as belonging to an upscale sports club, or living in the Hotel Zone, can put you in contact with more of them, creating the exact impression you spoke of, if I understand the situation, in general.

Not a high percentage of Mexicans could afford to follow the Junior sports circuit: those who can, may often have the connections I've referred to; or, through corrupt influences, benefit from those who do.
_______________________

[TraceyUk]

V
my contacts thru casablanca sports club are not shady (as far as I know) they are just normal human beings doing normal jobs (doctors, dentists, architects).Obviously none of us truly know what our next door neighbour is up to , and I dont have a radar for spotting dodgy people.

We put our kid thru the junior circuit of tennis through really hard work, a sponsor and grit determination to give our kid as good an opportunity as we can. Many of the other parents do exactly the same .To imply they or us got to that position thru corrupt association I find totally insulting .!

[V]

Looks like I misunderstood the source of the "undercurrents" you said you were feeling, Tracey.

My recent experiences have made me doubt, more and more, the existence of a true middle class in Mexico, in the sense of their having completely clean sources of income with which to sustain their relatively affluent lifestyle.

And it's not just limited to "unclean" sources of income- there is also the avoidance of payment of just debts on a grand scale, such as through tax evasion, theft of electricity, refusal to pay condo fees, and any number of other ways by which apparently affluent Mexicans are supporting their lifestyle. They are shameless in it, and take pleasure in seeing their photos in these silly, slick magazines devoted to nothing else, that you see lying around doctors' offices and other public places.

Meanwhile, they grind their domestic help with lots of work, and the lowest wages they can manage to pay.

These, too, are not the best Mexico has to offer, they are simply the most visible, with their Hummers, Black Mercedes SUVs and other high dollar cars, their dinners out at expensive restaurants, and their homes in the HZ.
_______________________

[Steve]

So, for this latest case:

(according to Revelan que policia ejecutado gasto "nomina" para policias - Grupo SIPSE, sipse.com)

The Zetas give this Police guy 75,000 pesos that he's supposed to distribute among all the other corrupt cops for their monthly payment. Instead he decides to go off on holiday and spends all the money.

When the Zeta's ask for a meeting to 'talk about it' he shows up and gets killed.

Surely another candidate for the Darwin awards

===========

I personally dont feel any uncomfortable degree of risk as it is at the moment. If I did I'd be out of here. Yes, I agree that this type of incident has increased. But I'd wager more people have been killed by lightning or hit by a bus, than by stray bullets.

And we're not scared of thunderstorms or crossing the road are we?

[rawkus]

The head of the Policia Turistico in Playa del Carmen, Mario Gómez Frías, was assassinated today by a group of hit-men.

His colleague was injured and is recovering in a local hospital.

Haven't heard more than that so far...

[Jim in Cancun]

Here is an article in Enbglish about the Playa del Carmen killing: Latin American Herald Tribune - Senior Policeman Gunned Down in Mexico

In either case to with with them or against them is not a god idea.

[d5332]

i know you guys dont see it or feel it because you live there...its like growing old...a joint starts hurting, the belly starts growing and you dont notice right away.

The transition that is occurring in Cancun and other Mex Cities that were once really safe is the same thing that happened in other Countries.

This is exactly what is happening, criminals are looking for safe havens bc they can no longer run around in their home towns and what better place to blend in than Cities filled with tourists and folks that migrated from other Cities and Countries. It very difficult to blend in a small town but Cancun super easy.

How much money is generated by the Tourism industry? You may not be able to extort the Aqua or RIU directly but you can squeeze the club owners, taxi drivers, tour companies, bus drivers, etc....its easy money but you have to make your presence known...

If Calderon carries on with the war and joint forces continue to disrupt the cartels normal means of income. The criminals will continue to migrate and they will need other sources to survive until their original sources are restored.

The sad part is that once they establish themselves EVEN if they restore their original sources, sometimes they end up generating so much money from extortion that they dont stop even after procuring new routes for their business, they simply end up with two businesses.

Cancun is already full of this "derecho de tierra" or basically rent fee extortion crap...look around folks, next time you see another vacant abandoned Hotel, Store, Restaurant, Car Dealership....ask yourself was that the economy or a fed up business owner. It happens without seeing it. In Medellin Colombia it was discovered that the BMW dealership was being extorted for years, every single year the local mafia boss would basically drive off with 20 brand new BMW's for him and his liutenants and the management could not do crap bc they lived in Colombia and they knew were they lived. Until this day, BMW has never made an official complaint to the authorities, the confession came from one of they extradited guys that for years drove a BMW for free.

The Hotel Zone will not see it out in the open very often but the City itself will.

And large companies like BMW are not stupid...there has been tons of prosperity in Colombia and ppl are buying new vehicles daily why create a news buzz with this and secondly this type of local news would put their dealerships and staff in danger.

Any company that carries enough weight in a foreign Country has the ear of the head of the commerce department, I am sure that quietly they must be voicing their concerns to the government but it would be stupid of them to do it within local media, employees would be at risk.

Folks, as stated, I travel 2 times per year to Colombia and we party just like we just did in Cancun, hell I am still hurting....We run around all over the place, come home late into the night, get in random cabs, etc...

You simply need to be aware of your sorroundings when you step into a bar, club, fonda, restaurant. My wife thought me how to easily recognize if a shady character happens to be at the same place I am at....now I think I am pretty good at recognizing it and leaving if I do notice it.

The very first time it happened to me was when I was walking into Mangos nightclub in Medellin Colombia 7 years ago. Young guy steps out of a Montero with two gorgeous girls, I was admiring the girls while my wife was noticing that the dude was being escorted by 8 local cops in uniform, hmmmmmm...yeah...

Another time was when an uncle took me to a local pub in Envigado. Place was filled with girls but one particular table stood out to me, table had 5 people, 1 guy and 4 girls. I noticed the table bc the girls looked bored out of their mind. I realized that the dude had to be shady when I noticed that certain men were wearing heaving clothing despite the heat and would only drink beer and ask a lot of questions of you..where are you from, who did you come with, bla bla bla...in the end the bodyguards actually knew exactly who my grandfather was, he was a local business man in Envigado that over the decades ended up procuring two entire City blocks adjacent to the town park which he converted into a strip mall.

Anyway, the point is, most crap happens at night so you can minimize the risk by being aware of your sorroundings and simply leaving....

[V]

In Medellin Colombia it was discovered that the BMW dealership was being extorted for years, every single year the local mafia boss would basically drive off with 20 brand new BMW's for him and his liutenants and the management could not do crap bc they lived in Colombia and they knew were they lived.

"Deals with the devil" such as this are a piss poor choice for anybody, they almost always end badly- with the demands becoming more outrageous, over time, and the end result the same.

Only a lack of imagination or courage limits one to a single option.

Weak governments find it hard to deal with this kind of threat to public security.

The Mexican people chose to live with the cartels in their midst because they had the option to do so: the cartels are now taking away that option.

Survival of the country- as one in which its own citizens would wish to live- is at stake: how its citizens respond to this challenge will determine the future of the country.

[d5332]

V, its not that simple. Those that refuse are dead by the end of the month and often if they may even target your family. You may even be killed if you quit your job instead of being part of it.

Its not the simple, you need to be face to face with extortion to know that they dont give you an option, it is do it or die and if you try to brave or claim that you can't do it bc it's your job bla bla bla, you will die.

Are you saying that if you were the manager of one of those dealerships that I saw in town and an offspring clan of the Juarez Cartel shows up at your office, makes a demand you are going to say f!!! off, I rather die before complying?

I hope not, that would mean you under estimate the underworld....

Most business ppl are chosing to cut their lossess and leave over night....

Its easy to talk tough when not faced with it, its not so easy when you know that without hesitation they will chop you up with a chain saw and send your head to your wife and dump your body out in the open to make a statement.

Originally Posted by V

"Deals with the devil" such as this are a piss poor choice for anybody, they almost always end badly, with the demands becoming more outrageous, over time, and the end result the same.

Only a lack of imagination or courage limits one to a single option.

[V]

Only a lack of imagination or courage limits one to a single option.

To understand this comment to mean "talk tough" is to illustrate the point I was making: it's easy to fall into a mindset which says, "There's nothing that can be done."

To deal with this threat successfully has to start with people believing they can find, and exercise, alternatives: it requires both imagination, and courage, but everywhere civilization has been established, or survived an existential threat, represents an example of this process. What happened to the Zetas on Isla Mujeres, previously reported on this forum, is anecdotal evidence of the exercise of both imagination, and courage, by the local citizenry when they faced what they perceived to be such a threat.

[d5332]

I cant find anything that says the Zetas are out, on the contrary I find that the Leyva's have been kicked out and that the Zeta's have cells in 5 of the most succesful districts including Isla Mujeres.

However, IF you have read local reports that claim that los Zetas are out of Isla Mujeres, I have a feeling that it was not the work of the "people". Several politicians have summer homes on Isla Mujeres and there is nothing more powerful than weathly business men and politicians!

Not sure what happened to los Zetas in Isla Mujeres but I will google it right now.

Originally Posted by V

To understand this comment to mean "talk tough" is to illustrate the point I was making: it's easy to fall into a mindset which says, "There's nothing that can be done."

To deal with this threat successfully has to start with people believing they can find, and exercise, alternatives: it requires both imagination, and courage, but everywhere civilization has been established, or survived an existential threat, represents an example of this process.

What happened to the Zetas on Isla Mujeres, previously reported on this forum, is anecdotal evidence of the exercise of both imagination, and courage.

[d5332]

To put an end to this topic, just be aware of your sorroundings and recognize that things are changing and the person you may say hi to may very well be somoene that is suffering from extortion...

If I were a criminal, sent to run Isla Mujeres, I would sell them drugs, I would extort each ferry employee, the ferry itself, each Dolphin tour employee, each golf cart company, each restaurant and each crafts merchant just to start....$4,000 pesos per week adds up. Isla Mujeres is not a good target, nothing that directly affects the lives of politicians and wealthy business men is ever good criminal business....

[V]

Quoting me:

As it's been related to me, Zetas became active here in demanding protection money, mainly in the last two years, following at least two years of disruptions to their business model and subsequent dimunition of their cash flow from their drug operations, as a result of the Federal Government's crackdown on them, abetted by the civil wars that broke out between cartels as an indirect consequence of the Government's actions. To make up the shortfall, they turned to what appeared to be a soft target, the business community here.

In dealing with them, I think it helps to understand that they are criminals, and have a criminal mentality but, like others who are trying to make money, they must marshal their resources and concentrate on soft targets. The idea that they will pull out all the stops to force every businessman into line seems to me to be unrealistic. For as long as soft targets continue to exist, they will continue to prey on them: resist, across the board, make every attempt to collect money a big pain in the ass and they will take other paths to riches. To make this happen in a meaningful way requires a strong sense of community and a willingness to face risk, acting in community with others.

According to what I've been told, not all have cooperated, and not all have paid. An example, from a single source, was the following: [a group of] the Zetas came to Isla and paid calls on a number of businessmen there, apparently saying they'd be back and the money had better be ready. Hard strapped businessmen knew it would be the end to life as they knew it if they cooperated and assented to being robbed in this way. According to the story I was told, they met together to plan a coordinated response which, it was decided, would include making a report to the Naval Authority and soliciting their intervention. As it was related to me, upon arrival on the island the next time, the visitors were arrested.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this story is true in all its particulars, those who express helplessness in the face of the threat would then, perhaps, imagine waves of Zetas landing on the shores of Isla, to extract revenge. With this mentality, no problems of any serious consequence would ever get solved, and the world could just be ruled by the criminals. It takes imagination of a different kind to solve a problem like this.

When I spoke of courage and resourcefulness, it was with examples such as the one given me about an episode at Isla Mujeres. There are elements in the story that contain the kernals of a solution to the problem, based in a strong sense of self, and the life one is determined to lead- whether it is to be governed by fear, or courage- and the sense of belonging to a community of people worth protecting and who are willing to help protect you. The Federal Government is doing about all it is capable of to deal with the problem, but it needs the help of the citizenry, united in a common cause.

Ennumerating the reasons the Zetas can't be stopped, as some have done on this thread, is just to express that sense of powerlessness, and overlooks the human capacity to set goals and plan concerted action to deal with problems that affect all.

[d5332]

I did not see that post of yours.....

Again, Isla Mujeres must not be of high importance. #1 it has a naval base, #2 the mansions owned by ppl that can influence things.

Cartels dont work as you have stated, where they will go business to business and ask for protection money and some pay and some dont.

They break up the town into segments, usually by income brackets. low, mid, high...and setup tariffs...once the structure is in place there is no maybe you pay and fine if you dont...you dont pay but have influence in the region, maybe your shop gets bombed or burned down....you dont pay and dont have influence in the area they shoot you are you are opening up your shop or on your way home to make an example out of you.

The point that you make in theory works, that's how govt's are overthrown but at the cost of countless human lives....

To band together as a town and attempt to keep crime out is signing a death warrant and most of us do not want to die....

When political motivation is a driver then ppl revolt, hence revolutions...when religion plays a role then ppl revolt, hence revolution, common street crime when opposed will kill you period.

If Isla Mujeres were big business then the Cartels would find a way to influence or intimidate the the naval base into looking the other way. There is not enough money there to be able earn enough that would make the base look the other way.......

Yes, revolution can change things but ppl will only be willing to give up their lives for political or religion reasons not to stop the cartels. In a revolution you can send your wife and kids to another town or Country while you stay behind and fight with your brothers. In Cartel matters they will kill your family before you even have a change to take up arms and they will do it brutally and again it does not motivate the masses like politics or religion.

I hear your point but if it worked then Mexico, Central America and half of South America would be in revolution not to mention North America and Countries across the globe....

Would you strap a bomb to your waist and walk into a pub that you knew was mafia owned? prob not, but ppl do it for religion.

Would you, a common citizen grab a gun and attend a bull fight which you knew was being attended by El Chapo and attempt to assasinate him? Prob not, but ppl do it for political reasons.

Originally Posted by V

Quoting me:

[d5332]

BTW, I dont think the Zetas made a move on Isla Mujeres....

The success if the Zetas is based on infiltrating law enforcement...

#1 they would have gotten into the base first
#2 Upon being snitched on, the months following that would have seen multiple deaths on the Island...

I lean more towards the following---any local drug sales that take place on the island has to pay franchise fees to some sort of large criminal group and thats as far as it goes.

The story you tell was probably common criminals seeking to exploit the name Zetas...hence once arrested they did not have the criminal structure to retaliate or was there numerous deaths following that event?

[Hudson]

I am sticking this inside this thread. I see no need to fill the board with a litany of doom and gloom threads, but this incident is not insignificant. 1,000 km away isn't super close, but it isn't that far away, either.

35 bodies in Veracruz, in presumed drug cartel mass killing

Gunmen dump bodies of 35 slaying victims on busy avenue in Gulf coast city in Mexico - Yahoo! News

[V]

...this incident is not insignificant.

It certainly wasn't for the 35 people who were killed, and their bodies dumped: the frenzy of self-destruction among the drug gangs, set off by the war against the cartels, goes on....

My prediction is a point will be reached where the violence will simply cease: it won't be obvious why, but every storm has a point at which its energy is finally spent.

Organized crime will still exist, just as it does in the U.S., but daily killings of rivals will no longer be a feature of it- so my crystal ball says....

[rawkus]

V: All in all, its a damn shame that so many Mexicans have to both give their lives and live in fear for their own Governments(several terms back in time...) lack of will/effort to curb corruption.

Im very curious about the "deals" Calderon is about to push through with a couple of the cartels. Which ones will it be? What, except "make sure new ones do NOT grow", will be the agreements? After it all(depending on how many years), what happens? Will the Govt turn on their "ally"? Will they let them operate?

Kind of reminds me about the US Army paying cash to the various groups of insurgents for "NOT targeting American troops".

What happens when the cartels Calderon will "work with" want more?

Ps. When does Calderons term run out? I know PRI and/or PRD had a "look away" tactic. What happens if one of these parties wins the next election? Will they once more let the cartels operate as long as they "dont kill civilians"?

As sad as it all is - its very interesting to follow.